How do you hide something from magicians?

[Ingo Siekmann]

Hallo,

in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.

The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.

So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

Bye
Ingo

[Tetsubo]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?
Bye
Ingo

Amongst other magical items? Within a family line? Buried beneath a
mountain of some magical material?

[Rob Kelk]

Post by Tetsubo

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?
Bye
Ingo

Amongst other magical items? Within a family line? Buried beneath a
mountain of some magical material?

In a no-mana zone, so divination spells can't find it?

[Bent C Dalager]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

Casting "Remove Aura" on it is usually a good start.

Cheers,
Bent D

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

Stop playing in that world, and start over with a new one, getting
things right this time, especially in terms of reining in Divination, by
changing the rules so that it cannot do far too much.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

Stop playing in that world, and start over with a new one, getting
things right this time, especially in terms of reining in Divination, by
changing the rules so that it cannot do far too much.

I'll agree with Peter that too-effective divination can ruin mysteries
(sort of like having a telepathic detective).

You're going to have look at what divination won't do and plan around
that. I'll second Scryguard.

Brandon

[librarian]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?
Bye
Ingo

Treasure isn't "Magic", but instead 5-6+ TL higher and so seems like
"Magic", but is in fact some sort of technologically advanced item.

best -

chris

[Michele]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

I'm surprised nobody seems to have come up with the handy solution:
Scryguard. Divination is an information spell, Scryguard protects against
all of those.

Note that the more Divination is common and effective, the more local
wizards will take precautions against it.

Note that keeping the treasure in a remote area also helps a lot. Place it
in the local equivalent of Antarctica, a mile under the surface. The
long-distance modifier, _if_ the caster is right there on the surface,
is -2, and first the caster has to arrive there. Try casting Divination
about that treasure from New York City, _and_ winning a contest of skill
with Scryguard.

I'd consider protection and warning spells, too. Suppose somebody powerful
is guarding the treasure. Is the caster willing to risk to alert him? It's
the same game as with radar and radar detectors; one can use his radar, but
in so doing he'll advertise his interest to anyone having radar detectors.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

I think the first question you have to ask is: why has no one else
found this treasure?

Brandon

[Ingo Siekmann]

***@yahoo.com schrieb:
-snip

Post by c***@yahoo.com
I think the first question you have to ask is: why has no one else
found this treasure?
Brandon

That's the reason why I am posting here. :-)


Bye
Ingo

[Michele]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
-snip

Post by c***@yahoo.com
I think the first question you have to ask is: why has no one else
found this treasure?
Brandon

That's the reason why I am posting here. :-)

As mentioned, because it is under a mile of ice and stone in Antarctica, and
it's Scryguarded. All those who tried Divination about the treasure in more
sensible continents achieved only failures, and several critical ones at
that, so the treasure has quite a reputation which in itself protects it
from further attempts by would-be diviners.
There is an ancient cult also protecting it, and they man an alleged
scientific station that provides security in the area should a party of
busybodies arrive there, and try to cast Divination within a reasonable
distance from the treasure.

[c***@yahoo.com]

On Jul 14, 10:49 am, "Michele"

Post by Michele

Post by Ingo Siekmann
-snip

Post by c***@yahoo.com
I think the first question you have to ask is: why has no one else
found this treasure?
Brandon

That's the reason why I am posting here. :-)

As mentioned, because it is under a mile of ice and stone in Antarctica, and
it's Scryguarded. All those who tried Divination about the treasure in more
sensible continents achieved only failures, and several critical ones at
that, so the treasure has quite a reputation which in itself protects it
from further attempts by would-be diviners.
There is an ancient cult also protecting it, and they man an alleged
scientific station that provides security in the area should a party of
busybodies arrive there, and try to cast Divination within a reasonable
distance from the treasure.

However, this doesn't explain why the *PCs* can find it while no one
else has. In movies, the reason often involves a character using up
his lifetime supply of Serendipity or some new invention (which also
often involves Serendipity, as a discovery iis often made by accident
through the use of the invention for another purpose).

Brandon

[Michele]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
However, this doesn't explain why the *PCs* can find it while no one
else has.

The usual. They are very lucky, very stubborn, very creative, etc. The
presence of a cult is, in itself, both additional security but also a
give-away, stalking that will produce useful intelligence. Maybe they have a
critical success at Divination. The father of one of the PCs has an
Obsession of his own about the treasure and has filled a small notebook with
clues he gathered all around the word over decades, and another interested
party, say the Nazi, well, Party, steals it, thus proving its importance...
I've already come across such a character, IIRC...

[librarian]

Post by Michele

Post by c***@yahoo.com
However, this doesn't explain why the *PCs* can find it while no one
else has.

The usual. They are very lucky, very stubborn, very creative, etc. The
presence of a cult is, in itself, both additional security but also a
give-away, stalking that will produce useful intelligence. Maybe they have a
critical success at Divination. The father of one of the PCs has an
Obsession of his own about the treasure and has filled a small notebook with
clues he gathered all around the word over decades, and another interested
party, say the Nazi, well, Party, steals it, thus proving its importance...
I've already come across such a character, IIRC...

"We named the dog Indiana..."

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

An even thornier, related, problem is how do you hide things from the
Gods. If you have a world where theurgy (clerical "magic") works it
should be pretty much impossible to have many secrets, hidden objects
and the whole idea of a mystery as a plot gets very difficult.

The work-arounds suggested for dealing with magicians would have to be
much more powerful or you would have to background in an _agreement_
of some sort among the Gods not to get involved with certain types of
objects and/or events.

--
Will in New Haven

[Tetsubo]

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

An even thornier, related, problem is how do you hide things from the
Gods. If you have a world where theurgy (clerical "magic") works it
should be pretty much impossible to have many secrets, hidden objects
and the whole idea of a mystery as a plot gets very difficult.
The work-arounds suggested for dealing with magicians would have to be
much more powerful or you would have to background in an _agreement_
of some sort among the Gods not to get involved with certain types of
objects and/or events.
--
Will in New Haven

The gods may well have an 'exclusion zone'. A place that is dead to
their power. A place where none of them hold sway or have any influence
within. The ultimate divine 'duty free zone'.

[Peter Knutsen]

Post by Tetsubo
The gods may well have an 'exclusion zone'. A place that is dead to
their power. A place where none of them hold sway or have any influence
within. The ultimate divine 'duty free zone'.

Or divine magic can't do espionage spells. That seems perfectly
reasonable to me.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Peter Knutsen

Post by Tetsubo
The gods may well have an 'exclusion zone'. A place that is dead to
their power. A place where none of them hold sway or have any influence
within. The ultimate divine 'duty free zone'.

Or divine magic can't do espionage spells. That seems perfectly
reasonable to me.

Another possibility:

Clerics can do certain of their spells against the enemies of society
that they cannot do when it is simply a matter of wars between lawful
realms or trade rivalries, etc. In those situations, they have a
smaller subset of their total spells and, of course, whatever their
wit and skills can do for them.

--
Will in New Haven

[WDS]

Post by Will in New Haven

Post by Ingo Siekmann
Hallo,
in my fantasy campaign, the heros are hired to find a legendary treasure
that was hidden more then 2.000 years ago.
The problem is that in the world magic - and esp. divination - works.
So - how do you hide something that should not be found?

An even thornier, related, problem is how do you hide things from the
Gods. If you have a world where theurgy (clerical "magic") works it
should be pretty much impossible to have many secrets, hidden objects
and the whole idea of a mystery as a plot gets very difficult.
The work-arounds suggested for dealing with magicians would have to be
much more powerful or you would have to background in an _agreement_
of some sort among the Gods not to get involved with certain types of
objects and/or events.

Well, what if a follower of one god tries to hide something from the
follower of another? Are all the gods able to overcome the powers of
the others?

Or maybe the gods just grant their followers the ability to do mage-like
things and so the normal rules apply.

[Shhalahr]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:07:01 -0500, Will in New Haven =

Post by Will in New Haven
An even thornier, related, problem is how do you hide things from the
Gods. If you have a world where theurgy (clerical "magic") works it
should be pretty much impossible to have many secrets, hidden objects
and the whole idea of a mystery as a plot gets very difficult.
The work-arounds suggested for dealing with magicians would have to be=
much more powerful or you would have to background in an _agreement_
of some sort among the Gods not to get involved with certain types of
objects and/or events.

This presupposes deities that are fully omniscient and whose omniscience=
=

if effectively passed onto their clerics through their divinations. That=
=

is seldom the case for most settings with which I am familiar. At the ve=
ry =

least, one might expect a deity=E2=80=99s knowledge of a place or thing =
with low =

sanctity for it to be very limited. Even when there is an omniscient =

deity, that deity usually has limited power to act on that which it know=
s. =

That=E2=80=99s the sort of thing that maintains mystery.

As for the clerics=E2=80=A6 well, have I missed something that says the =
=

divinations they cast are more powerful than the ones cast by magicians =
=

using the same spell?

-- =

- Shhalahr

[Danth]

Or, perhaps it's against the divine will of the hierarchy or, in a one god system, against the divine plan for the information to be leaked out. Even when the Greek gods were wreaking havoc on man, the fates had the ultimate power to intercede.

[Ingo Siekmann]

Hallo,

so 10 days have passed, and youre comments were very helpfull. I won't
go into details - the players are possibly reading this -, but I will
use a few (or one? or none? or all? muhahaha) of them.
Thanks to all.

Bye
Ingo

[Danth]

This has been one of the neatest conversations I've read so far, having just recently joined. You probably don't need the information anymore, but one I could see several sub plots right from the start.

First, sub plot one would be a magical battle scenario (much like a hacking scenario from Cyberpunk). Ultimately, while the divination might work, and the mage scry the location, a counter spell would attack the mage and scramble his mind.

The second sub plot would be for the mage's party to find him drooling on himself sequestered away in some chamber, dying of starvation. They would have to race to find a cure for the "memory wipe."

The third and subsequent subplots would rest in other adventures. Memories would serve as clues and would be triggered by events within the story (think Paycheck with Ben Affleck). However, the spell that wiped the mages memories has another effect: it is slowly eroding all memory of the scenario. So not only do the memories come in fragments, put several pieces of the puzzle are disappearing with each adventure.