Setting Thoughts Wanted.

[Shawn Wilson]

Real(ish) world. Same as ours until the Event (described later).
Initial effects of the Event are trvial and unnoticed.

But...

Archduke Ferdinanand survives the wounds inflicted by Gavrilo Princip,
though his wife dies of her wounds.

A runner in the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 dies of a wound
that he would have survived in other circumstances.

WWI procedes the same, except as above. Post war Ferdinand is exiled
from Austria. He winds up the head of a neo-royalist political party
and is surprisingly effective. They win a great deal of support from
the people as the only viable alternative to the Communists. His
death in 1932 (of old age and bitterness and the effects of his
wounds) helps the Party win a plurality of seats in the Reichstag on a
sympathy vote for the party's new head- his son Maximillian.
Maximillian is made Chanceller of Germany by Hindenberg, and in a new
round of voting the Royalists win a large majority of the seats, which
they use to impose a radical 'new' regime.


[yes, it is a great dal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different. I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]


So, yeah, Germany is now a Hapsburg monarchy, and on the road to
uniting all the German people under that umbrella. Austria joins
willingly (of course).

Without going into details, Victor Emmanual III (Italy) takes over the
Mussolini role, and is friendly with Maximillian.


The role of the SS is taken by an organization called The Imperial
Household, as a kind of state within the state. The Waffen-SS are now
the Imperial Guard.

Maximillian is a LOT smarter and more capable (and less evil) than
Hitler (yes, that was him above) ever was, and the Royalist Party and
Imperial Household not a collection of jumped up white trash thugs.

Why Maximillian rather than Franz Ferdinand? FF would have been too
old (80ish). At about 40 Maximillian would be nearly ideal. (real
person btw)

For the record, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, et al are considered 2nd
class citizens, but there is no Holocaust. Which is to say, they are
treated the same as they have always been in the region (or rather
Germany, it was *worse* in eastern europe). The Royalists are not
racists, which is not to say they are open minded and inclusive.
Germans are still better than everyone else, but you can't help not
being born German.


WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.


The Event- in the 1890s a series of flashes were observed on the face
of Mars. Nothing came of it, except that HG wells wrote a popular
book. Maybe if they could have observed the far side of the Moon
people would have seen something.

1908 Tunguska, mysterious meteor. Nothing comes of it.

1943 a series of meteors fall world wide over a short period of time.
Nothing comes of it.

In December 1944, with armies fighting world wide, Martians come from
the underground complexes situated beneath the craters of those
(ignored) 1943 meteors and start wreaking devastation worldwide. WWII
is put on hold to meet this new threat to all humanity.

The Martians are NOT tripedal, though an early report mistakely said
they were. They are insectile and six legged. There are many, many
variaties, though generally coming down to worker, warrior and queen.
They farm humans for food...

Twilight 2000 in 1945, with WWII equipment and Martians.

Decent idea?

[Kent Allard]

Post by Shawn Wilson
Twilight 2000 in 1945, with WWII equipment and Martians.
Decent idea?

Me like.

You'll probably need to really think about the Martian tech level and numbers.
They obviously are out-numbered but that can be overcome with better guns, as
long as the guns aren't TOO good. If the world starts winning, that's when you
can bring in the second wave.

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by Kent Allard

Post by Shawn Wilson
Twilight 2000 in 1945, with WWII equipment and Martians.
Decent idea?

Me like.
You'll probably need to really think about the Martian tech level and numbers.
They obviously are out-numbered but that can be overcome with better guns, as
long as the guns aren't TOO good. If the world starts winning, that's when you
can bring in the second wave.

There are as many metor sites as necessary, located worldwide
(including antarctica and underwater). I figure about 100-200. The
sites themselves have had the time (a year) to build from their
'seeds', so they can be as large as necessary. Certainly it would
take more than one Corps to take one down. At least an Army or even
an Army Group.

The Martians themseves do not use technology as such. They are
entirely organic, which is to say bugs. As they are born is as they
are. Their innate capabilities do mimic technology though. They
project some sort of beam at range (not really a heat ray, and insert
obligtory bombadier beetle reference here) that has properties close
to human weapons. I think it is some sort of wierd acid. Small bugs
are infantry, larger ones are tanks. There are also flyers who can
engage P-51s and some sort of heavy air attack bug to play bomber.
They can be bred to have different properties, but their efficiency is
fixed (ie a more powerful and tougher tank bug would necessarily be
larger and take longer to grow). I imagine they get larger and
tougher as they grow, so heavy tank bugs are older examples of light
tank bugs.

There are also super bug 'land battleships', to play the role of the
Martial tripods. You will need at least a tank battalion to kill it.

Bug queens are not inert masses at the heart of the base. See that
huge building the base is built around? The one that makes the 'land
battleships' look tiny in comparison? It is heavily armed and armored
and capable of getting up and walking and killing you and all your
friends. (why yes, I DID like The Mechanoid Invasion...). That's the
queen. Bing a nuke (ooops, not yet...)

I tend to not desire the presence of 'brain bugs'. Individual bugs
can't be communicated with or talked to but they are not stupid and
can communicate with each other. I think they are all distributed
procesor hive intelligence. Bugs communicate not by magic but by
radio frequencies, which can be intercepted and jammed but not
decoded. I imagine that it is encrypted on par with 2011 levels, and
utterly beyond decoding in the 1940s. Bugs are intelligent. Jamming
is an issue, but the individuals do not become mindless.

[David Lamb]

Post by Shawn Wilson
[yes, it is a great dal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different. I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]

Definitely a good idea; you generally want "villains" who aren't
cardboard. I've read that the "lebensraum" idea that led to Hitler's
invasion of Poland was consistent with ideas floating around the German
and Austro-Hungarian monarchies of World War I, so World War II might
have happened even if the Old Gang had stayed in charge.

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Martians are NOT tripedal, though an early report mistakely said
they were. They are insectile and six legged. There are many, many
variaties, though generally coming down to worker, warrior and queen.

You might consult Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" novel (not the movies)
on the variety of "bugs" that made sense. In particular they had "brain
bugs" that controlled the warriors, separate from the queens. Or perhaps
Mote In God's Eye, where the Moties had many geneticly-determined
castes: givers-of-orders, mediators, engineers, porters, doctors,
warriors, and I think many more.

Post by Shawn Wilson
They farm humans for food...

They'd need to colonize for this to make sense, rather than pay the
enormous expense of shipping food back to Mars. Unless it made economic
sense to send breeders to Mars to support the home world. But for *that*
to make sense, it would have to make sense to put up with the slow human
breeding cycle. Maybe the upper-crust needs some hard-to-synthesize
organic compound only produced in the human brain, so relatively small
numbers of humans suffice to make it.

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by David Lamb

[yes, it is a great deal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different.  I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]

Definitely a good idea; you generally want "villains" who aren't
cardboard.  

I LIKE Imperial Germans with all their Prussian haughtiness (and
competence, this is NOT a Germany of Nazi stupidity led by a drugged
out lunatic). And an Imperial Germany makes the idea of allying with
them (even against Russia) a reasonable possibilty. You could even
play a German character, without all the Nazi nonsense. I tried to
keep things as intact as possible vis a vis WWII. I imagine the East
Front is a few hundred miles further East than it was in reality. And
in Dec 1944 (pre-Bulge, btw, but just barely) Germany is retreating,
but stronger than it historically was.

And, yes, I know damn well how much of this is ground covered by
Turtledove, but I like my version better. Why aren't the space
travelling invaders more advanced? Because they are limited by the
possibilities of their biology. They are smart, but maybe not
sentient.

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by David Lamb

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Martians are NOT tripedal, though an early report mistakely said
they were.  They are insectile and six legged.  There are many, many
variaties, though generally coming down to worker, warrior and queen.

You might consult Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" novel (not the movies)
on the variety of "bugs" that made sense.  In particular they had "brain
bugs" that controlled the warriors, separate from the queens. Or perhaps
Mote In God's Eye, where the Moties had many geneticly-determined
castes: givers-of-orders, mediators, engineers, porters, doctors,
warriors, and I think many more.

Staship Troopers, Starcraft (zerg), Warhamer 40k (tyrannids), The
Mechanoid Invasion...

Post by David Lamb

Post by Shawn Wilson
They farm humans for food...

They'd need to colonize for this to make sense, rather than pay the
enormous expense of shipping food back to Mars.  Unless it made economic
sense to send breeders to Mars to support the home world. But for *that*
to make sense, it would have to make sense to put up with the slow human
breeding cycle. Maybe the upper-crust needs some hard-to-synthesize
organic compound only produced in the human brain, so relatively small
numbers of humans suffice to make it.

They're EEEVVVUUULLL, so of course they eat people.

[David Lamb]

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by David Lamb

Post by Shawn Wilson
They farm humans for food...

They'd need to colonize for this to make sense, rather than pay the
enormous expense of shipping food back to Mars. Unless it made economic
sense to send breeders to Mars to support the home world. But for *that*
to make sense, it would have to make sense to put up with the slow human
breeding cycle. Maybe the upper-crust needs some hard-to-synthesize
organic compound only produced in the human brain, so relatively small
numbers of humans suffice to make it.

They're EEEVVVUUULLL, so of course they eat people.

Hmm. Well, I guess that could work for some players. The fact that it
doesn't make sense to *me* is pretty much irrelevant.

I *do* believe there is genuine evil in the universe, and it isn't
always rational, but long-lasting evil has to make some kind of economic
sense (like, sadly, slavery for most of history) or political sense
(like warrior-caste repression of peasantry).

Conquering a planet for a few "happy meals on legs" doesn't make a whole
lot of sense.

[tussock]

Shawn Wilson wrote:

<snip>
You'll have to excuse some nitpicking on the alt-history part, great
idea though, skip the first half for far more positivity. 8]

Post by Shawn Wilson
Archduke Ferdinanand survives the wounds inflicted by Gavrilo Princip,
though his wife dies of her wounds.
A runner in the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 dies of a wound
that he would have survived in other circumstances.

So, a "no Hitler" scenario.

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWI procedes the same, except as above.

I guess terrorism is a pretty crap excuse for the war no matter who
lives or dies. The central powers are itching for war due to geopolitical
limitations on their empire building, and thus the enrichment of their
elite.
Plus, everyone thought they could win quickly, never good.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Post war Ferdinand is exiled from Austria. He winds up the head of a
neo-royalist political party and is surprisingly effective. They win a
great deal of support from the people as the only viable alternative to
the Communists.

He'd still have to be basically fascist. The communists were held down
in the polls by the fascist's terror campaigns, but the nationalisation of
all industry was going to happen there one way or another, as that's what
the people wanted, to finally end the great depression.

Post by Shawn Wilson
His death in 1932 (of old age and bitterness and the effects of his
wounds) helps the Party win a plurality of seats in the Reichstag on a
sympathy vote for the party's new head- his son Maximillian.
Maximillian is made Chanceller of Germany by Hindenberg, and in a new
round of voting the Royalists win a large majority of the seats, which
they use to impose a radical 'new' regime.

Reichstag fire. Polish communist terrorism at work. Temporary powers
handed to the chancellor, war declared on those "giving aid and comfort to
terrorists", but the war machine is found somewhat lacking.
Massive funding arrives from the west to help fight the communist
insurgency, and Great Britain begins building the warplane factories that
will /just/ save their asses in a few years time.

Post by Shawn Wilson
[yes, it is a great dal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different. I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]

Well, Hitler invaded Russia because he believed that despite their
massive material and manpower advantages, Slavs would be too genetically
primitive to beat Germans. "Low brow", like the apes, you see. Figured he'd
just have his army remove all the useless monkey-people from the world to
make a bigger Germany.
Ditto for Japan, really, and they were totally monarchist.

<snip>

Post by Shawn Wilson
For the record, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, et al are considered 2nd
class citizens, but there is no Holocaust. Which is to say, they are
treated the same as they have always been in the region (or rather
Germany, it was *worse* in eastern europe). The Royalists are not
racists, which is not to say they are open minded and inclusive.
Germans are still better than everyone else, but you can't help not
being born German.

If you get someone who's not a genocidal racist in charge, why do they
go to war with Russia? They can sue for peace at any time once the oil
becomes an issue, and get it. Maybe even restore the Ottomans, seeing as how
he's a monarchist and Britain are far too weak to stop them.
The British commonwealth and the US could still war with Japan, but if
Japan goes for peace early with Germany, the US won't get their war, and
Europe will have little choice but to abandon their eastern colonies.
I guess if Japan isn't genocidal either, ....

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.

So, the Russians have won, and the US have joined Britain to stop
Communism taking over Europe. The German wermacht was in ruins by then,
cities had already had the firestorm treatment, and the food reserves of the
world were in dire shortage. Japan is in retreat, having lost most of it's
Naval power.
No matter what happens from here, you're going to see starvation and
associated disease kill tens of millions in the next few years.

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Event- in the 1890s a series of flashes were observed on the face
of Mars. Nothing came of it, except that HG wells wrote a popular
book. Maybe if they could have observed the far side of the Moon
people would have seen something.
1908 Tunguska, mysterious meteor. Nothing comes of it.
1943 a series of meteors fall world wide over a short period of time.
Nothing comes of it.
In December 1944, with armies fighting world wide, Martians come from
the underground complexes situated beneath the craters of those
(ignored) 1943 meteors and start wreaking devastation worldwide. WWII
is put on hold to meet this new threat to all humanity.

That is /brilliant/. Love it. Put a threat on US soil and they withdraw
to fight it. Russia's 10-million man front line turns back face to the new
danger, it's supply lines facing constant losses.
Europe in ruins is left to it's own devices. Asian communism takes hold
early as a 1-teach-1 way to fight the new menace. The Japanese take to
worshipping the Martians as gods come to save them from the Barbarians.

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Martians are NOT tripedal, though an early report mistakely said
they were. They are insectile and six legged. There are many, many
variaties, though generally coming down to worker, warrior and queen.
They farm humans for food...

We'd make a very poor food. I prefer other ideas there, like, we're a
pest species who keeps raiding their gardens, because we're starving (or
just don't like Martians, as the case may be).

Post by Shawn Wilson
Twilight 2000 in 1945, with WWII equipment and Martians.
Decent idea?

Oh, yes. Get some of that late-war German tech, but no fuel to run it,
no nukes, huge industrial capacity in the US that's struggling to supply the
troops they left overseas while they eliminate the local Martians.

What can they do on water? The US ability to land Marines on any shore
will annoy the Martian Queens no end. Britain could clear itself with the
stationed US manpower and start firebombing the Martian colonies in Europe,
what do they have to fight that? Fliers? Swimmers? How do they handle 6000
soviet tanks rolling up to a colony? Massed artillery? Stalin was pretty
keen on throwing warm bodies at a problem like that, 3 million at a time.

It's just, the armies of WWII are immense, experienced, and equipped
well enough to fight for a few weeks without resupply. How did it get from
there to Twilight 2000 without making us extinct? Right, we're food, but
then what can the PCs every really achieve?

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by Shawn Wilson
Archduke Ferdinanand survives the wounds inflicted by Gavrilo Princip,
though his wife dies of her wounds.
A runner in the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 dies of a wound
that he would have survived in other circumstances.

    So, a "no Hitler" scenario.

Yep. I don't like Hitler. Not just personally. I want a more
interesting and competent Germany, and Hitler was a loon.

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWI procedes the same, except as above.

    I guess terrorism is a pretty crap excuse for the war no matter who
lives or dies. The central powers are itching for war due to geopolitical
limitations on their empire building, and thus the enrichment of their
elite.
    Plus, everyone thought they could win quickly, never good.

Actually, the war made perfect sense-

Assassination of Ferdinand- Austria captured many conspirators and
interrogates them. That points at Serbian government involvement in
the plot, maybe only low level, maybe highest level. Austria makes
bayonet-pointed demands of Serbia vis a vis investigation. Serbia
runs to Russia for help. Austria goes to Germany for help against
Russia.

Germany knows that France will support Russia. Decides to attack
France first. To supprt enough (almost...) troops in France to win
the war, Germany needs to go through Belgium. The brings in the UK.

There's more, it is a fascinating story. But this is the outline.
Step by stpe sensible people made sensible decisions that led
inexorably to destruction. Only two serious mistakes, both doozies-

1) Serbia fucks with Austria, and gets caught and crushed like a bug.

2) *German* Generals decide that wishful thinking is a substitute for
careful and realistic planning, and lose the war in France, exactly as
the plans predicted...

Post by Shawn Wilson
Post war Ferdinand is exiled from Austria.  He winds up the head of a
neo-royalist political party and is surprisingly effective.  They win a
great deal of support from the people as the only viable alternative to
the Communists.

    He'd still have to be basically fascist. The communists were held down
in the polls by the fascist's terror campaigns, but the nationalisation of
all industry was going to happen there one way or another, as that's what
the people wanted, to finally end the great depression.

Post by Shawn Wilson
His death in 1932 (of old age and bitterness and the effects of his
wounds) helps the Party win a plurality of seats in the Reichstag on a
sympathy vote for the party's new head- his son Maximillian.
Maximillian is made Chanceller of Germany by Hindenberg, and in a new
round of voting the Royalists win a large majority of the seats, which
they use to impose a radical 'new' regime.

    Reichstag fire. Polish communist terrorism at work. Temporary powers
handed to the chancellor, war declared on those "giving aid and comfort to
terrorists", but the war machine is found somewhat lacking.
    Massive funding arrives from the west to help fight the communist
insurgency, and Great Britain begins building the warplane factories that
will /just/ save their asses in a few years time.

Post by Shawn Wilson
[yes, it is a great dal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different.  I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]

    Well, Hitler invaded Russia because he believed that despite their
massive material and manpower advantages, Slavs would be too genetically
primitive to beat Germans. "Low brow", like the apes, you see. Figured he'd
just have his army remove all the useless monkey-people from the world to
make a bigger Germany.
    Ditto for Japan, really, and they were totally monarchist.
<snip>

Post by Shawn Wilson
For the record, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, et al are considered 2nd
class citizens, but there is no Holocaust.  Which is to say, they are
treated the same as they have always been in the region (or rather
Germany, it was *worse* in eastern europe).  The Royalists are not
racists, which is not to say they are open minded and inclusive.
Germans are still better than everyone else, but you can't help not
being born German.

    If you get someone who's not a genocidal racist in charge, why do they
go to war with Russia? They can sue for peace at any time once the oil
becomes an issue, and get it. Maybe even restore the Ottomans, seeing as how
he's a monarchist and Britain are far too weak to stop them.
    The British commonwealth and the US could still war with Japan, but if
Japan goes for peace early with Germany, the US won't get their war, and
Europe will have little choice but to abandon their eastern colonies.
    I guess if Japan isn't genocidal either, ....

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.

    So, the Russians have won, and the US have joined Britain to stop
Communism taking over Europe. The German wermacht was in ruins by then,
cities had already had the firestorm treatment, and the food reserves of the
world were in dire shortage. Japan is in retreat, having lost most of it's
Naval power.
    No matter what happens from here, you're going to see starvation and
associated disease kill tens of millions in the next few years.

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Event-  in the 1890s a series of flashes were observed on the face
of Mars.  Nothing came of it, except that HG wells wrote a popular
book.  Maybe if they could have observed the far side of the Moon
people would have seen something.
1908 Tunguska, mysterious meteor.  Nothing comes of it.
1943 a series of meteors fall world wide over a short period of time.
Nothing comes of it.
In December 1944, with armies fighting world wide, Martians come from
the underground complexes situated beneath the craters of those
(ignored) 1943 meteors and start wreaking devastation worldwide.  WWII
is put on hold to meet this new threat to all humanity.

    That is /brilliant/. Love it. Put a threat on US soil and they withdraw
to fight it. Russia's 10-million man front line turns back face to the new
danger, it's supply lines facing constant losses.
    Europe in ruins is left to it's own devices. Asian communism takes hold
early as a 1-teach-1 way to fight the new menace. The Japanese take to
worshipping the Martians as gods come to save them from the Barbarians.

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Martians are NOT tripedal, though an early report mistakely said
they were.  They are insectile and six legged.  There are many, many
variaties, though generally coming down to worker, warrior and queen.
They farm humans for food...

    We'd make a very poor food. I prefer other ideas there, like, we're a
pest species who keeps raiding their gardens, because we're starving (or
just don't like Martians, as the case may be).

Post by Shawn Wilson
Twilight 2000 in 1945, with WWII equipment and Martians.
Decent idea?

    Oh, yes. Get some of that late-war German tech, but no fuel to run it,
no nukes, huge industrial capacity in the US that's struggling to supply the
troops they left overseas while they eliminate the local Martians.
    What can they do on water? The US ability to land Marines on any shore
will annoy the Martian Queens no end. Britain could clear itself with the
stationed US manpower and start firebombing the Martian colonies in Europe,
what do they have to fight that? Fliers? Swimmers? How do they handle 6000
soviet tanks rolling up to a colony? Massed artillery? Stalin was pretty
keen on throwing warm bodies at a problem like that, 3 million at a time.
    It's just, the armies of WWII are immense, experienced, and equipped
well enough to fight for a few weeks without resupply. How did it get from
there to Twilight 2000 without making us extinct? Right, we're food, but
then what can the PCs every really achieve?
--
    tussock

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by Shawn Wilson
Post war Ferdinand is exiled from Austria.  He winds up the head of a
neo-royalist political party and is surprisingly effective.  They win a
great deal of support from the people as the only viable alternative to
the Communists.

    He'd still have to be basically fascist. The communists were held down
in the polls by the fascist's terror campaigns, but the nationalisation of
all industry was going to happen there one way or another, as that's what
the people wanted, to finally end the great depression.

I don't think so. Anyone with a viable alternative to the Communists
could have done it. There was no need for fascism.

Post by Shawn Wilson
[yes, it is a great dal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different.  I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]

    Well, Hitler invaded Russia because he believed that despite their
massive material and manpower advantages, Slavs would be too genetically
primitive to beat Germans. "Low brow", like the apes, you see. Figured he'd
just have his army remove all the useless monkey-people from the world to
make a bigger Germany.

Well, actually he invaded Russia in order to conquer and colonize it.
What you said is just why he thought he would win. Imperial German
empire with eastern european colonies? Sure.

Post by Shawn Wilson
For the record, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, et al are considered 2nd
class citizens, but there is no Holocaust.  Which is to say, they are
treated the same as they have always been in the region (or rather
Germany, it was *worse* in eastern europe).  The Royalists are not
racists, which is not to say they are open minded and inclusive.
Germans are still better than everyone else, but you can't help not
being born German.

    If you get someone who's not a genocidal racist in charge, why do they
go to war with Russia?

Lebensraum. Conquest and colonization. Build the ultimate German
empire. I would call it the Third Reich, but that was used already.

They can sue for peace at any time once the oil
becomes an issue, and get it. Maybe even restore the Ottomans, seeing as how
he's a monarchist and Britain are far too weak to stop them.

Ah, Turkey... So a smarter Germany pre-WWII, what changes that
doesn't undo WWII itself? Free passage through Turkey would be damn
useful to the German armies. I don't know if Turkey could contribute
meaningful forces. But even Romania did.

    The British commonwealth and the US could still war with Japan, but if
Japan goes for peace early with Germany, the US won't get their war, and
Europe will have little choice but to abandon their eastern colonies.
    I guess if Japan isn't genocidal either, ....

I think Japan will be the same as historically. There's no minor
change that will affect things. Kill Hitler, sure. All he has to do
is die of a wound he survived. That doesn't work with Japan. But I
didn't think about the Pacific.

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.

    So, the Russians have won,

Not quite, the Germans DO get the benefit of being smarter here. I
think without the Martians the Germans WILL lose, but it will take
longer than historically. The East Front is further east, and weaker
than historically at this point. I actually run into the problem of
why a smarter, less-racist Germany didn't conquer Russia outright.
Without racism the Ukraine joins their side...

and the US have joined Britain to stop
Communism taking over Europe.

Interesting politics, because here allying with Germany against Russia
is not impossible.

    No matter what happens from here, you're going to see starvation and
associated disease kill tens of millions in the next few years.

Twilight 2000 is not a bright cheery place, not even when moved up to
1945. No 50s boom here. Hard fighting worldwide, economic devasation
in the US. Some of thos Martian bases are in the US. I envision a
Battle of Chicago to rival Stalingrad. Remember, most US forces are
overseas...

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Event-  in the 1890s a series of flashes were observed on the face
of Mars.  Nothing came of it, except that HG wells wrote a popular
book.  Maybe if they could have observed the far side of the Moon
people would have seen something.

Note, let me make it explicit- there is a substantial Martian
presence/ forward base on the far side of the Moon.

Post by Shawn Wilson
1908 Tunguska, mysterious meteor.  Nothing comes of it.

Secret recon mission, now the most advanced/developed/largest base.

Post by Shawn Wilson
1943 a series of meteors fall world wide over a short period of time.
Nothing comes of it.

There'a a war on, people have other concerns.

Post by Shawn Wilson
In December 1944, with armies fighting world wide, Martians come from
the underground complexes situated beneath the craters of those
(ignored) 1943 meteors and start wreaking devastation worldwide.  WWII
is put on hold to meet this new threat to all humanity.

    That is /brilliant/. Love it. Put a threat on US soil and they withdraw
to fight it. Russia's 10-million man front line turns back face to the new
danger, it's supply lines facing constant losses.

Yeah... Note, in a very real way the US forces overseas CAN'T
withdraw. The US lacks the shipping. It took years to get them there
in the first place. The US is going to have a hard time fighting on
its own soil. Other nations all have their troops in the worng
places, fighting/defending against enemies that did NOT suddenly turn
into friends.

Post by Shawn Wilson
The Martians are NOT tripedal, though an early report mistakely said
they were.  They are insectile and six legged.  There are many, many
variaties, though generally coming down to worker, warrior and queen.
They farm humans for food...

    We'd make a very poor food. I prefer other ideas there, like, we're a
pest species who keeps raiding their gardens, because we're starving (or
just don't like Martians, as the case may be).

They're EEEVULL alien invaders. Of course they eat people.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Twilight 2000 in 1945, with WWII equipment and Martians.
Decent idea?

    Oh, yes. Get some of that late-war German tech, but no fuel to run it,
no nukes, huge industrial capacity in the US that's struggling to supply the
troops they left overseas while they eliminate the local Martians.
    What can they do on water?

There are undersea martian bases. They can survive on the Moon, they
can live ANYWHERE on earth. Well, not in a vocano.

The US ability to land Marines on any shore
will annoy the Martian Queens no end. Britain could clear itself with the
stationed US manpower and start firebombing the Martian colonies in Europe,
what do they have to fight that? Fliers? Swimmers?

Fliers, yes. There are varieties of Martian that can dogfight a
P-51. My other post that went into a little detail about the Martians
seems to have gotten lost, so-

Note, inspirations- Starship Troopers, Starcraft, Warhammer 40k,
Cthorr, The Mechanoid Invasion.

Martians are bugs. They don't use technology, they are their tools.
There are a multitude of different types, basically grouped worker,
warrior and queen.

They have a ranged weapon that looks in operation something like a
heat ray, but it isn't. What it actually is I don't know. It's
effects are similar to human weapons of that scale, so 'infantry' do
not carry weapons that will destroy a battleship. There are
'infantry' bugs about human sized that fight with weapons comparable
to rifles. 'Tank bugs', note heavy tank bugs are generally an older,
larger light tank bug. There are flying bugs that can dogfight a
P-51. There are also 'bomber' and land and air transport bugs. (got
to have the full range of activity. there are no supersonic flying
bugs. They are fast but not that fast. There are also very large
'land battleship' bugs, that fill the role of the Tripods from WotW,
though they have six legs (all martians do). One of these shows up
and the response should be "oh. my. god..." Better bring more than a
tank battalion to fight it.

Martian bases are mostly underground but post eruption will have
increasing surface features. They are all dominated by a huge central
building that dwarfs the 'tripods'. This is a Martian queen. It is
mobile (if it chooses), heavily armed and armored. (yeah,
Mechanoids...) Bring nuclear weapons (oops, it will be some time for
that...) or a large fleet of heavy bombers. Fall down and die of
shock when that attack on the amrtian base is going well, and then the
goddam astrodome at the middle stands up and starts annihilating your
forces...


Martians communicate with each other via radio frequencies and they
can be jammed or intercepted. They are encrypted beyond 1945 ability
(or perhaps ever) to decipher or spoof. They can also communicate at
short range via other means that cannot be jammed or intercepted.
Individual bugs are intelligent, and will not go stupid' just because
their long range communications have been jammed any more than an
infantry company would. I imagine that they operate as an AI
distributed among multiple nodes.

There are no 'leader' or brain bugs. Large scale coordination is all
done by the queen. Martians aren't just smart, they are wiley.
Different queens (and their hives) will not cooperate, but neither
will they fight each other.

Martians can not/will not communicate with humans. No negotiating,
surrendering (either way) or deal making.

Martians are NOT infinitely numerous. Bugs grow slowly and require
scarce resources. They are not cheaply expendible and won't be wasted
anymore than infantry or tanks would be. Martian bases can be
attritted over time and in reasonable time, and reources making
warriors are not making workers, so the 'economy' slows/stalls.
You've played Starcraft. The total Martian 'economy' is smaller than
Earth's, though a much larger percentage is devoted to the
'military'. Martians don't recreate.

Red weed grows where the Martians go, and in some way requires their
cultivation because it disappears when Martian do. Red weed is the
primary Martian food and resource, though they can eat other things
(and people...) if weed isn't available. Martians eat people as a
dietary supplement, not a primary source of nourishment. They also
use people as fertilizer for the weed.

No, Martians are NOT subject to any disease...

Martians can survive in any human environment that a person could, and
more. This includes Antarctica and underwater, though not at
unlimited depths. There is a large Martian base on the far side of
the Moon (yes, Martians can survive in a vacuum). Humanity does not
know this. While Martians can survive in most any environment, that
does not mean they will prosper there. There are tough but still
living beings, they prefer conditions amenable to life.

The name Martian is a convenience, no one actually knows (though
everyone assumes) that they come from Mars. There may or may not
actually be any 'Martians' on Mars, and if there are they may not have
originated there. They could not survive Venus or Pluto.

Not every base erupted in 1944. There are hidden/secret bases still.
This war may actually be only a probe.

How do they handle 6000
soviet tanks rolling up to a colony? Massed artillery? Stalin was pretty
keen on throwing warm bodies at a problem like that, 3 million at a time.

Yeah, basically. I haven't decided what form Martian indirect fire
takes, but it exists. Visins of Starship Troopers (yes, the movie...)

    It's just, the armies of WWII are immense, experienced, and equipped
well enough to fight for a few weeks without resupply. How did it get from
there to Twilight 2000 without making us extinct? Right, we're food, but
then what can the PCs every really achieve?

Small victories, enabling later generations to win medium victories
that allow still later generations a century or more hence to finally
win the war. What did Audie Murphy achieve?

[David Lamb]

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.

So, the Russians have won,

Not quite, the Germans DO get the benefit of being smarter here. I
think without the Martians the Germans WILL lose, but it will take
longer than historically. The East Front is further east, and weaker
than historically at this point. I actually run into the problem of
why a smarter, less-racist Germany didn't conquer Russia outright.
Without racism the Ukraine joins their side...

I've seen claims that Germany would inevitably have lost WW II to
Russia, because Russia had massively larger industrial capacity and a
willingness to sacrifice millions to defend the Motherland and destroy
the Fascists. The Western Front just mean Russia won faster and with
fewer losses.

Similarly, I've seen (but forgotten where) numbers showing the US
producing more ships in a small period of time (measured in single-digit
months) than Japan started the war with -- another inevitable loss
because of mismatch of industrial capacity.

So, yeah, Germany would have lost your version of WW II, I think, except
for the Martian invasion.

[tussock]

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock

Post by Shawn Wilson
Post war Ferdinand is exiled from Austria. He winds up the head of a
neo-royalist political party and is surprisingly effective. They win a
great deal of support from the people as the only viable alternative to
the Communists.

He'd still have to be basically fascist. The communists were held down
in the polls by the fascist's terror campaigns, but the nationalisation
of all industry was going to happen there one way or another, as that's
what the people wanted, to finally end the great depression.

I don't think so. Anyone with a viable alternative to the Communists
could have done it. There was no need for fascism.

To be viable in the tail end of the great depression, you had to be
pretty close to what they both offered. The Socialists and Communists got
about 2/3 of the vote between them because they promised to fix those damned
industrialists and bankers for the good of the people.

The great depression was a state of plenty in which everyone starved,
because the capitalism of the time couldn't figure out how to shift the food
to the hungry people. You can't stick with that and get elected.

<snip>

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock
If you get someone who's not a genocidal racist in charge, why do they
go to war with Russia?

Lebensraum. Conquest and colonization. Build the ultimate German
empire. I would call it the Third Reich, but that was used already.

Fair point. The British colonies were only a little bit racially
genocidal, and only then because it was all the victim's fault, no matter
how hard the crown strived for fairness in it's deals (at least, that's what
they told themselves at home). The Belgian colonies make Hitler look sweet.

<snip>

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock
The British commonwealth and the US could still war with Japan, but if
Japan goes for peace early with Germany, the US won't get their war, and
Europe will have little choice but to abandon their eastern colonies.
I guess if Japan isn't genocidal either, ....

I think Japan will be the same as historically. There's no minor
change that will affect things. Kill Hitler, sure. All he has to do
is die of a wound he survived. That doesn't work with Japan. But I
didn't think about the Pacific.

Brazil, Australia, China, ... there's a lot of poorly defended land in
1943-44 that the Martians can disappear in for a while, especially if they
can rely on deep wells for water (of course they can, they're /Martians/!).

Fortunately for them, their radio will be just constant word-wide
static, and not easily triangulated through all the repeaters.

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.

So, the Russians have won,

Not quite, the Germans DO get the benefit of being smarter here. I
think without the Martians the Germans WILL lose, but it will take
longer than historically. The East Front is further east, and weaker
than historically at this point. I actually run into the problem of
why a smarter, less-racist Germany didn't conquer Russia outright.
Without racism the Ukraine joins their side...

One interesting game-thing the "less Evil" Germans might get is a whole
lot more engineering science done. Hitler disbanded their war science
programs in '42, IIRC, and sent everyone to the front for a couple years
before starting it up again.
So you could have late-1945 era tech for the Germans in your late '43
game if you wanted it, with higher industrial capacity if they can defend it
a little better. Super-tigers, 100mm guns, rocket interceptors and jet
patrol aircraft, long-range guided munitions, conventional ICBMs dropping on
the USA's major Atlantic shipyards.

Hmm. They can damn near win the Battle of Britain if they're smart about
it. Not to the point of a full-scale invasion, but certainly removing the
southern air defence and any chance of retaliation for years.

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock
and the US have joined Britain to stop
Communism taking over Europe.

Interesting politics, because here allying with Germany against Russia
is not impossible.

Sides seem fixed to me, the Soviets and the US /have/ to be allied, no
matter who else goes where, because of Japan. Everyone wanted their /own/
guys to rule China, not the Japanese.

You might have Britain as a mid-war neutral party with it's airfields
and radar destroyed by slightly more sane bombing methods, makes it
impossible for the US to station troops there though, which might see more
of them moved to North Africa, the Middle-east, or even South-East Asia and
China with the other Anglo colonies.
US troops in China, going for a land invasion in Japan earlier?

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock
No matter what happens from here, you're going to see starvation and
associated disease kill tens of millions in the next few years.

Twilight 2000 is not a bright cheery place, not even when moved up to
1945. No 50s boom here. Hard fighting worldwide, economic devasation
in the US. Some of thos Martian bases are in the US. I envision a
Battle of Chicago to rival Stalingrad. Remember, most US forces are
overseas...

Lots of arms factories, fortunately, and a good national ethos for
figuring out how to win after the first time.


<snips>

Post by Shawn Wilson
Note, let me make it explicit- there is a substantial Martian
presence/ forward base on the far side of the Moon.

Come 1966 [-0 .. +200 yrs], that's going to get nuked. Question is, how
many big rocks can they drop on us before we can nuke Mars? 8]


<snip>

Post by Shawn Wilson
Yeah... Note, in a very real way the US forces overseas CAN'T
withdraw. The US lacks the shipping. It took years to get them there
in the first place. The US is going to have a hard time fighting on
its own soil. Other nations all have their troops in the worng
places, fighting/defending against enemies that did NOT suddenly turn
into friends.

I think it'd be human vs alien in a week, at most. Once people figure
out these things aren't a weapon of the other side.

No point arguing who's going to enslave China or colonise Russia if it's
all going to be full of uncooperative Martians.

Post by Shawn Wilson
They're EEEVULL alien invaders. Of course they eat people.

European death camps after all.

Post by Shawn Wilson
There are undersea martian bases. They can survive on the Moon, they
can live ANYWHERE on earth. Well, not in a vocano.

That is some seriously weird biology. Yay! 8]


<snips, cool description, thanks for that>

Post by Shawn Wilson
Martians communicate with each other via radio frequencies and they
can be jammed or intercepted.

So you stop them calling in air support and landships by jamming, and if
you can catch all their scouts then the queen won't know you're taking out
all her distant workers and warriors until you're gone.
She's not going to like the jammer noise though, so you'll need fake
ones ... ah, tactics quickly evolve.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Different queens (and their hives) will not cooperate, but neither
will they fight each other.

Big advantage to humans. Once that's known you can /experiment/, get the
civilians and factories to one safe place and take the queens down one at a
time as your resources and training allow.
Of course, the Soviets are the only ones with highly mobile factories.
USA maybe if they'd taken some ICBMs.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Martians are NOT infinitely numerous.

And presumably a fast flier, landship, or queen, also uses scarce
resources in terms of energy when they're on the move. Big walkers
practically excavate as they go, /huge/ fuel consumption.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Red weed grows where the Martians go, and in some way requires their
cultivation because it disappears when Martian do. Red weed is the
primary Martian food and resource, though they can eat other things
(and people...) if weed isn't available. Martians eat people as a
dietary supplement, not a primary source of nourishment. They also
use people as fertilizer for the weed.

Nice. They can all use the red weed as camouflage too, no doubt.

Post by Shawn Wilson
No, Martians are NOT subject to any disease...

Most likely they've got a complete set of their own to keep ours at bay.
That seems to be how it works for us.

Post by Shawn Wilson
I haven't decided what form Martian indirect fire takes, but it exists.
Visins of Starship Troopers (yes, the movie...)

You don't need indirect fire if you've got armoured bombers, or direct
fire blimps. Artillery may be a human advantage, even if it is just light
towed howitzers that can be kept running.

[David Lamb]

Post by tussock
Hmm. They can damn near win the Battle of Britain if they're smart about
it. Not to the point of a full-scale invasion, but certainly removing the
southern air defence and any chance of retaliation for years.

According to some speculation I've encountered, all they needed to win
the Battle of Britain was one night's better luck. If they hadn't
accidentally bombed London that first time, then Churchill wouldn't have
had the excuse to bomb German cities, which enraged Hitler into bombing
cities instead of military targets. Come to think of it, a saner
(non-Hitler) German High Command might have stayed on target even after
German cities started taking hits.

Post by tussock

Post by Shawn Wilson
Yeah... Note, in a very real way the US forces overseas CAN'T
withdraw. The US lacks the shipping. It took years to get them there
in the first place. The US is going to have a hard time fighting on
its own soil. Other nations all have their troops in the worng
places, fighting/defending against enemies that did NOT suddenly turn
into friends.

I think it'd be human vs alien in a week, at most. Once people figure
out these things aren't a weapon of the other side.
No point arguing who's going to enslave China or colonise Russia if it's
all going to be full of uncooperative Martians.

I think tussock is mostly right -- though there's plenty of "wiggle
room" in the scenario for how long people take to "get" what's
happening. I really think the folks left at home in the USA wouldn't
*need* the overseas troops to come home to fight the Martians
effectively, for pretty much the same reason people don't invade
Switzerland: a country full of armed and dangerous citizens.

[Michele]

Post by tussock
Hmm. They can damn near win the Battle of Britain if they're smart about
it. Not to the point of a full-scale invasion, but certainly removing the
southern air defence and any chance of retaliation for years.

According to some speculation I've encountered, all they needed to win the
Battle of Britain was one night's better luck.

In a word, no. Try with this other speculation:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=103866

If they hadn't

accidentally bombed London that first time, then Churchill wouldn't have
had the excuse to bomb German cities, which enraged Hitler into bombing
cities instead of military targets. Come to think of it, a saner
(non-Hitler) German High Command might have stayed on target even after
German cities started taking hits.

...and? They would not have defeated the RAF before the autumn weather over
the Channels prevents an invasion. A saner German High Command, BTW, would
not attempt such an invasion anyway.

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by tussock
He'd still have to be basically fascist. The communists were held down
in the polls by the fascist's terror campaigns, but the nationalisation
of all industry was going to happen there one way or another, as that's
what the people wanted, to finally end the great depression.

I don't think so.  Anyone with a viable alternative to the Communists
could have done it.  There was no need for fascism.

    To be viable in the tail end of the great depression, you had to be
pretty close to what they both offered. The Socialists and Communists got
about 2/3 of the vote between them because they promised to fix those damned
industrialists and bankers for the good of the people.

I don't think so. Communism was pretty unpopular. I thinkthe
Royalists could have managed ona campaign of restoring Germany's
pride and whatnot.

    The great depression was a state of plenty in which everyone starved,
because the capitalism of the time couldn't figure out how to shift the food
to the hungry people. You can't stick with that and get elected.

Well, it was more complicated than that, and actually a case of
government trying to manage the economy instead of letting the economy
manage itself. Call the Depression a symptom of even small levels of
Communism and (which it was) and you will get followers. It isn't an
issue I think needs to be specifically addressed for this setting
though.

I think Japan will be the same as historically.  There's no minor
change that will affect things.  Kill Hitler, sure.  All he has to do
is die of a wound he survived.  That doesn't work with Japan.  But I
didn't think about the Pacific.

    Brazil, Australia, China, ... there's a lot of poorly defended land in
1943-44 that the Martians can disappear in for a while, especially if they
can rely on deep wells for water (of course they can, they're /Martians/!).

Oh, yes. After Europe and North America are cleared, the next problem
will be dealing with the massive infestations of the 3rd world, which
would be all but incabable of defending themselves.

    Fortunately for them, their radio will be just constant word-wide
static, and not easily triangulated through all the repeaters.

I think I will change something- Martians communicate and close range
verbally (it sounds like hooting to humans) There are Martians humans
mistakenly called leaders, who really aren't. They are radio
creatures that handle long range communications, ie Martian RTOs with
built in radios. The Queen knows everythign they do and can usetheir
senses.

Post by tussock

Post by Shawn Wilson
WWII procedes roughly the same, until December 1944.

So, the Russians have won,

Not quite, the Germans DO get the benefit of being smarter here.  I
think without the Martians the Germans WILL lose, but it will take
longer than historically.  The East Front is further east, and weaker
than historically at this point.  I actually run into the problem of
why a smarter, less-racist Germany didn't conquer Russia outright.
Without racism the Ukraine joins their side...

    One interesting game-thing the "less Evil" Germans might get is a whole
lot more engineering science done. Hitler disbanded their war science
programs in '42, IIRC, and sent everyone to the front for a couple years
before starting it up again.

The lag time is enough that I don't think anything could have been
finished before the end of the war anyway. But, yeah, wonderwaffe
stuff IS starting to appear, with more on the way. Stuff that did
appear historically will, I think, be more numerous and somewhat
better quality (ie longer than 10 hour service life on those Me-262
engines).

    So you could have late-1945 era tech for the Germans in your late '43
game if you wanted it,

Late *44* game. The Martians start attacking in Dec 1944. I want
Americans already on the continent. In 43 with all those US troops a
Martian base in the UK would be instantly annihilated.




with higher industrial capacity if they can defend it

a little better. Super-tigers, 100mm guns, rocket interceptors and jet
patrol aircraft, long-range guided munitions, conventional ICBMs dropping on
the USA's major Atlantic shipyards.

Not quite THAT much, I think...

    Hmm. They can damn near win the Battle of Britain if they're smart about
it. Not to the point of a full-scale invasion, but certainly removing the
southern air defence and any chance of retaliation for years.

No, that could never happen. German need to destroy the RAF, but they
could only reach part of the UK. The RAFs contingency was that if the
forces in the southeastern UK (about half the total) were reduced
below half strength they would be pulled back out of range. In the
event of an invasion the entire RAF would be sent in to fight, which
is a MINIMUM of 150% of the usual strength the Germans faced.

Interesting politics, because here allying with Germany against Russia
is not impossible.

    Sides seem fixed to me, the Soviets and the US /have/ to be allied, no
matter who else goes where, because of Japan. Everyone wanted their /own/
guys to rule China, not the Japanese.

Russia didn't care about China. For the WWII part the sides are the
same. Once the Martians attack different alliances (ie with Germany)
become POSSIBLE, but I don't see the US/UK joining Germany against
Russia under existing circumstamces.

    You might have Britain as a mid-war neutral party with it's airfields
and radar destroyed by slightly more sane bombing methods, makes it
impossible for the US to station troops there though, which might see more
of them moved to North Africa, the Middle-east, or even South-East Asia and
China with the other Anglo colonies.
    US troops in China, going for a land invasion in Japan earlier?

Not really possible.

They're EEEVULL alien invaders.  Of course they eat people.

    European death camps after all.

Oh, definitely. Captured humans by the millions, full on death camps
horror when they are freeed. Horrific medical experiments/torture,
the whole nine yards. Germany isn't as evil, but there is still a
Holocaust to sear meories for centuries after, it's just Martians
doing it.

Martians are NOT infinitely numerous.

    And presumably a fast flier, landship, or queen, also uses scarce
resources in terms of energy when they're on the move. Big walkers
practically excavate as they go, /huge/ fuel consumption.

Yes. The Martian 'heat rays' are created by some chemical process
within their bodies. This uses scarce energy reserves.

The red weed is only one form of Martian plant life, and it's sterile
with a short life cycle. Weed is dependent on the presence of
Martians to become fertile, which is why it dies if they aren't
around. Fertile weeds produce red gourds/fruit/melons/whatever, which
are the most concentrated form of Martian food. Other Martian plants
have other purposes (ie concentrating certain minerals from the soil,
among others). They would only be found in close proximity to Martian
bases, so humans would have no normal contact with them.

A given Martian 'infantrymen' only contains enough chemicals within
its body to fire about 100 shots. It creates more through organic
processes. Fed on as much melon as they can eat, they could manage
thousands of shots a day. Eating weed they could manage several
hundred. If forced to subsist on Earthly plants and animals they
would struggle to produce 10 shots a day, or less. A Martian with no
food at all, as in a desert, will starve to death within a week.

More thought son Martians-

While I call them 'bugs', they are not (very) insectile. Their hide
is leathery, not an insects carapace. For large Martians this is
thick enough to resist tank fire. A small Martian can be killed by a
man with a knife though. If desperate enough a man could kill a
Martian with his bare hands, with effort.

They do not possess an exoskeleton, but rather a flaxible endoskeleton
unlike ours, composed of small linked rigid segments that can be
locked together for leverage or unlocked for flexibility, much like a
human spine. They do not have long rigid bones.


Typical Martian phenotypes-

Workers/laborers. About large dog sized. They do most of the scut
work. Not smart, say IQ about 80. No weapons but their claws and
teeth, fairly strong for their size and can kill a man if they get
close enough. Under direction they may attack, but without are likely
to flee instead. If you want a horde of bugs to mow down until you
run out of ammunition, these are it.

'Construction equipment'. Large heavy duty Martial bulldozers/
backhoes/cranes/whatever. They perform the heavy construction tasks.
Claws and teeth again. Very tough and dangerous if they attack.
Likely to defend themseves against humans rather then merely flee.
Won't act offensively without direction.

'Technicians' Human sized. Perform skilled or delicate tasks beyond
the level of the laborers. May be the base Martian form. Seem to
direct other types, maybe. Most versitile and smartest. The 'medical
experiments' in the Martian camps are performed by technicians. Claws
and teeth (small), but not very strong. Almost certain to flee if
attacked.

'Trucks'. Large, not tough. Used to transport bulk cargo from place
to place.

Dust-offs. Smaller 'trucks' that fly with wings. Not fast, not
tough. Agile. Think Martian cargo helicopter. Have been known to
transport combat bugs tactically. Unarmed.

Gasbags. Large. Hollow. Lighter than air (hydrogen filled). Just
seem to float over a region for no reason. Don't do anything. Not
tough. No weapons. Think very sharp senses and a radio... Unarmed.

Flyers. Fighter-sized. Wings. Small heat ray. Propelled by a jet
engine that uses the same chemicals as the heat rays and other Martian
weapons as fuel and which is much like a pulse jet. Capable of 400mph
or more. Does not flap its wings. Agile.

Bombers. Large flyers. Slow. May have a small heat ray or two but
its main weapon is shooting large fireballs as 'bombs'. Also uses 'jet
engines'.

Infantry. Man sized and of average intelligence. Have small claws
and teeth, but their main wapon is a fire ball projector of one of two
types. Either many small balls of short range but very high rate of
fire (yes, submachine gun), or large, poweful long range balls at a
slow rate of fire (bolt action rifle). Can also create explosive
balls of very short range as a form of hand grenade. There are also
'machine gun' bugs, that may merely be the older version of the above.
Powerful long range fireballs at a high rate of fire (regular machine
gun)

'Ammo carriers' Bugs specialized to produce their volatile chemicals
quickly (much faster than the others) and to store it for later use.
Can regurgitate and feed its supplies to other Martians to replenish
them if depleted. Not innately armed beyond small claws and teeth.
Likely to burn fiercely if killed with sufficient violence. Won't
explode though. Other Martians can also 'share' their chemicals, but
have much less.

'Tanks' Large, very tough martians with heat rays.

Artillery, large but not tough martians that specialize in throwing
large fireballs long distances. Small ones could serve as a mortar
section.

'Leaders' Not actually leaders. Communication Martians via radio.
Remote viewer for the queens, who see everything they do.

Queens. Very large, very tough, very very dangerous, powerful heat
rays. HAve six main limbs, the first one seen was using three limbs
for something else, standing onthe others. This led to the errorneous
name 'tripods'. Those are mobile queens. A Martian base will be
built around a sessile queen. And queens contine to grow. Queens
never lose the capacity for movement, they just prefer not to once
settled. Can produce either live, mature young (slow) or eggs at
will. A typical Martian 'cylinder' contains three mobile queens.

'Cylinders' are how Martians travel through space. They are basically
spores. In flight they are filled with a gel that protects the
Martian passengers from reentry heat and impact and puts them into a
form of hibernation that will keep tham alive almost forever. They
are almost emtirely ballistic, but have a limited ability to steer.
Such a spore travelling through our solar system landed on Mars.
There may have been others that could not manage to change course to
land on a world they could survive. Their launchng mechanism
resembles a giant cannon with multiple chambers ala the V3 cannon.


Martian weapons-

Black smoke. Poisonous gas, heavier than air. Non-persistent in a
technical sense as it breaks down within a day, instantly if exposed
to water. Fatal if inhaled and injurious if mucous membranes are
exposed to it, otherwise harmless. Standard protective masks provide
100% protection. Improvised measures are also effective if done
properly. Pretty much useless against professional soldiers. Rarely
used as a consequeces.

Heat ray- archetypical martian weapons. Not a ray at all, but a
chemical stream at very high velocity. Its effects mimic a heat ray,
including the ignition of flammable material, hence the name.

Fireballs. Called such because that is what it looks like. Actually
the same principle as a heat ray, but discreet balls rather than a
continuous stream. Used only by small martians too small to
incorporate a full ray. Note, all heat rays and fireballs glow, this
is not good for the Martians in the dark. On the other hand they make
less noise than rifles do. Though they are certainly not silent.

'lugies'. Basically very large fireballs contained in a sort of
shell. They can't be projected at anything like the same velocity,
but their power makes up for that. They explode when the shell is
ruptured, generally by hitting something. Martian infantry uses them
as hand grenades, artillery uses them rather than heat rays, since
heat rays are strictly line of sight, and bombers use them as bombs.

[tussock]

Shawn Wilson wrote:

<snip: politics>
Heh, that's the Shawn Wilson I remember. 8]

Post by Shawn Wilson
I think I will change something- Martians communicate and close range
verbally (it sounds like hooting to humans) There are Martians humans
mistakenly called leaders, who really aren't. They are radio
creatures that handle long range communications, ie Martian RTOs with
built in radios. The Queen knows everythign they do and can usetheir
senses.

Cool, gives the players another tactical option.

Post by Shawn Wilson

Post by tussock
Hmm. They can damn near win the Battle of Britain if they're smart about
it. Not to the point of a full-scale invasion, but certainly removing the
southern air defence and any chance of retaliation for years.

No, that could never happen. German need to destroy the RAF, but they
could only reach part of the UK. The RAFs contingency was that if the
forces in the southeastern UK (about half the total) were reduced
below half strength they would be pulled back out of range. In the
event of an invasion the entire RAF would be sent in to fight, which
is a MINIMUM of 150% of the usual strength the Germans faced.

Yep, no invasion, but Britain wasn't short of planes and airfields, it
was short of fighter pilots. If they'd had less time over the south
themselves because the German bombers stuck to the fields and radar, and the
Luftwaffe fighters had stuck to ambushing them to reduce their numbers, they
eventually can't stop the German bombers at all.
More trouble with shipping, more evacuations, bla bla bla.


<snip>

Post by Shawn Wilson
More thought son Martians-
While I call them 'bugs', they are not (very) insectile. Their hide
is leathery, not an insects carapace. For large Martians this is
thick enough to resist tank fire. A small Martian can be killed by a
man with a knife though. If desperate enough a man could kill a
Martian with his bare hands, with effort.
They do not possess an exoskeleton, but rather a flaxible endoskeleton
unlike ours, composed of small linked rigid segments that can be
locked together for leverage or unlocked for flexibility, much like a
human spine. They do not have long rigid bones.

Neat. Hydraulic, muscular, or other?

Post by Shawn Wilson
Typical Martian phenotypes-
Workers/laborers.

"Bugs": Watch for Mikey, and someone shut those bugs up.

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Construction equipment'.

"Bulls": Use your bazookas, get /real/ close, and don't miss.

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Technicians'

"Geeks": Monsters, terminate with extreme prejudice.

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Trucks'.

"Dollies": Kill everything else first, don't waste ammo on them.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Dust-offs.

"Willies": A distraction, don't get distracted.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Gasbags.

"Blimps": You see them, trouble's coming.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Flyers.

"Foo Fighters": ... and if they start gliding, you've got them.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Bombers.

"BFFs": Get to your foxhole, and quick. AA men's favorite target.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Infantry.

"Mikey": Keep your damn fool head down.

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Ammo carriers'

"Flamers": Light 'em up, boys.

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Tanks'

"Tanks": Takes one to kill one.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Artillery

"Woompas": You hear that sound, you hit the ground.

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Leaders'

"Alphas": These are *always* your first priority, soldier.

Post by Shawn Wilson
Queens.

"Tripods": 'Base? Do you read? We have a problem.' <zzzt>

Post by Shawn Wilson
'Cylinders'

"Meteors": Seems like all them fancy scientists were wrong.



Know what this setting needs? Vlad. Jump the shark on day one.

[Michele]

Post by Shawn Wilson
I don't think so. Communism was pretty unpopular.

The KPD was the third party in Germany in 1932, with 17% of the vote, a
positive trend of +2.5%, an increase of seats of +11 (to 100). Only the
Nazis and Socialists did better. The positive trend had been going since
after WWI. What stopped that growth? The Nazis, but not through free
elections.

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by Michele

I don't think so.  Communism was pretty unpopular.

The KPD was the third party in Germany in 1932, with 17% of the vote, a
positive trend of +2.5%, an increase of seats of +11 (to 100). Only the
Nazis and Socialists did better. The positive trend had been going since
after WWI. What stopped that growth? The Nazis, but not through free
elections.

By unpoopular I didn't mean it didn't have supporters. I meant that
people who weren't its supports strongly disliked it.

[Roger Burton West]

Post by Shawn Wilson
[yes, it is a great dal of effort to merely replace the Nazis with
someone almost exactly like them, but critically different. I don't
like Nazis, and I want WWII with less evil]

Here's a different approach. I realise it's not what you want, but
someone else might find it interesting.

WWII goes according to history. Things change at some point in mid-1946,
when the cylinders start falling. (The Martians spotted the Trinity
test, and set out at once to conquer the planet before it got _more_
troublesome. Fitting-out time will depend on their society and tech
base; voyage time on a Hohmann transfer is about 260 days; I can't be
bothered to calculate launch windows, but you only get one per 780 days
so it might be in 1947.)

So what do the _victorious_ Allies do about the invasion? They're going
to need troops and tech, fast - and that means bringing the Germans and
Japanese into the fold. (Sure, you don't want the senior survivors, but
when von Mellenthin or Kurt Welter turn up and say they want to fight
aliens...)

R

[David Lamb]

Post by Roger Burton West
Fitting-out time will depend on their society and tech
base; voyage time on a Hohmann transfer is about 260 days; I can't be
bothered to calculate launch windows, but you only get one per 780 days
so it might be in 1947.)

My astrophysics isn't up to a calculation, but...

My google-fu found several quite vague statements about minimum energy
transfer for the return trip occurring at "about the same interval"
which was "26 months". The Mars Direct website talked about spending "a
year and a half" on Mars and returning on a "6 month trip". So as a
rough estimate there could be a Martian landing about 2 months before
any sensible Earth-to-Mars launch. Back-calculating from various Mars
probe launch dates, martians could have landed in December 1943.

Far too many approximations to really count on this being accurate, but
late 1943 makes sense.

Earth/Mars launch windows are apparently about 1 month wide; no idea how
wide the converse might be.

Unfortunately for the Tunguska timing there were no Mars/Earth minimal
transfer landings in 1908. There could have been a moon landing in
May(-ish) 1907 that launched the "explosion" mission later. ISTM farside
Moon landings followed by moon-to-Earth "meteor" launches can justify
any schedule you like.

[Shawn Wilson]

Post by David Lamb
Unfortunately for the Tunguska timing there were no Mars/Earth minimal
transfer landings in 1908. There could have been a moon landing in
May(-ish) 1907 that launched the "explosion" mission later. ISTM farside
Moon landings followed by moon-to-Earth "meteor" launches can justify
any schedule you like.

Tunguska came from the Moon, not Mars. The launch from Mars landed on
the Moon, where they started bulding a base and another launch
facility. Once they could manage they sent Tunguska as a recon/
advanced base/probe. With decades of building (in secret) Tunguska is
the largest and most advanced base on Earth, and no one knows it's
there.

Martian queens can create different forms of Martian life at will,
though more capable ones take longer to grow. So if one choose she
could create Martians that can survive unprotected on the surface of
the Moon, for a while. Martians are living organisms and require
oxygen just like everything else. Once on Earth they wouldn't bother
breeeding those without reason.

Queens can bring forth fully developed live young (slow) or produce
eggs. Much of a Martian base is specialized hatcheries for those
eggs.